The purpose of education - maximising potential

BBC Scotland held a debate entitled "After the Bomb" a week after the Glasgow Airport attack. Following the traditional Question Time format, half-way through the programme a question on faith schools was selected in amongst the other issues affecting the terror threat.

It was a bizarre enough debating point in the context, but despite the fact that the panel did defend Scotland's diverse education system, not one of them made the point that this has nothing to do with terrorism and as such had no place on the programme. You don’t need much of an excuse to attack faith schooling in Scotland, but this was stretching the usual segregation canard to absolute ridicule.

My recent thought on this issue is that those who advocate an educational monoculture in Scotland, and advance community relations as their primary argument, need to explain their presumption for collective education in the first instance.

The aim of the education system is surely actually to maximize the potential of children. If someone felt strongly in Glasgow that an Islamic environment was best for their child in their early development, what was to stop them doing so at home? What if a few parents got together and set up an informal Islamic school? At a certain number it would be subject to HMIE inspections, but apart from that it would be no one’s business except that of the parents. As long as national curriculum guidelines were met, there would be nothing in principle wrong with this arrangement.

So to hope in a fuzzy sense that “everyone goes to school together” is pretty unworkable anyway, not to mention entirely misplaced. If the foolish decision was taken to abolish Catholic schools, they would still exist in some form. Much better to keep them in in the state sector.

The daughter of one of my colleagues began school in Birmingham this year. She started off in a non-denominational school, but didn’t enjoy it and was struggling despite her bright nature. Halfway through the school year, they switched her to an Islamic school. She suddenly started thriving. Who will tell them that they are now sending their child to the wrong school? In the same way, we’re finding in Scotland that the top performing schools are Catholic ones. This barely merits a mention, let a lone an examination, but I would proffer that it’s because of the congruity between home and family life.

Sacrificing the form of schooling which may be best to achieve personal development for children would be odd to say the least. We should be proud of the diversity in our educational system.

Comments

[johnmellor77]

Maximising what potential, exactly?

If school is all about academic results than why waste time with an Islamic ethos? Why not just make pupils get down to the serious business of learning all day? Why stop for prayer?

How about their potential as human beings - ones who recognise and respect other cultures? No, you're happy for schoolkids to indulge in territorial battles at their separate schools comfortable in the knowledge they'll grow out of it eventually.

Of course, if behaviour learned at school doesn't carry on into adult life, then what's the point of having an Islamic ethos? Won't that be forgotten? Or does behaviour learned at school actually carry on into later life? What else will these kids pick up? What happens if Muslim schoolkids always see other kids as the other, and vice versa?

Your argument is pretty incoherent. All you can do is offer up some anecdotal evidence about a friend's kid in Birmingham. Great. Did you not maximise your potential at school? Was the lack of Islamic instruction at your school the cause of your failure to do so? Are kids taught at Islamic schools better Muslims than those who weren't? Are they smarter? Where does that leave you?

AS for BBC debate, the question was whether the panel thought faith schools increased sectarianism. You could see Sturgeon thought so but had to dodge the question because of Salmond's promise on a Muslim school so said she did not think faith schools were the root cause of sectarianism, which wasn't what was asked.

Why was it wrong to raise the issue anyway? It seems a valid enough point, particularly if attacks against Muslims have increased in the wake of the Glasgow attack? Is isolating Muslim children from their non-Muslim peers the solution? Is your answer to everything either a)that's Islamophobia or b) that's nothing to do with terrorism?

Home schooling's fine - but again that's not maximising a child's potential either, is it? That isjust stunting the development of their social skills.

Faith schools, whatever denomination, are wrong. They indoctrinate children and that is not maximising anyone's potential, is it?

[joe90]

Struth! Imagine your wean turned out like mellor?

He's the perfect advert for sending your bairn to a faith school!

[johnmellor77]

Funny Joe!
Anything to contribute? Didn't think so. Go back sleep.

[Ameen (click here) !]

May Allah help us to raise our Muslim children in an environment that is best for their Islam.

Ameen (click above) !

[joe90]

Mellor is such a sociable likeable and caring specimen of the educational ethos he represents and champions.

Such a warm human being who practices what he preaches, as we see, respecting and recognising not just other people's cultures, but other people too, especially in a public forum when discussing the benefits of certain types of educational environments over others.

A perfect case example of what Mellor represents, and not just anecdotal either.

I think the way Mellor presents his case is so truly overpowering, it's obvious to me which kind of school people would now rather send their children to, that is, if they were in any doubt before Mellor's intervention.

[Osama]

If school is all about academic results than why waste time with an Islamic ethos? Why not just make pupils get down to the serious business of learning all day? Why stop for prayer?

You ignore the point I made about the success of Catholic schools. They don't select, so why is it that they do so well? In England too, we see that Islamic schools finish top of the 'value-added' tables i.e. that because the kids went to that school they did much better by age 15 than they were expected to at age 11. You may not like faith, but it is clear that for their pupils they provide a more comfortable environment than would otherwise be the case, meaning that the business of learning is easier.

How about their potential as human beings - ones who recognise and respect other cultures? No, you're happy for schoolkids to indulge in territorial battles at their separate schools comfortable in the knowledge they'll grow out of it eventually.

Of course, if behaviour learned at school doesn't carry on into adult life, then what's the point of having an Islamic ethos? Won't that be forgotten? Or does behaviour learned at school actually carry on into later life? What else will these kids pick up? What happens if Muslim schoolkids always see other kids as the other, and vice versa?

Being at a faith school isn't antithetical to respecting the culture of others. It's not about separating kids out - currently Muslims go to Catholic schools, there's Muslims at Jewish schools, and hopefully there will be non-Muslims at any future Islamic school. Added to this, I think twinning arrangements with joint sports, drama, trips etc are a good idea too. Your caricature of children in faith schools in pitched battles is exactly that though, a caricature.

Your argument is pretty incoherent. All you can do is offer up some anecdotal evidence about a friend's kid in Birmingham. Great. Did you not maximise your potential at school? Was the lack of Islamic instruction at your school the cause of your failure to do so? Are kids taught at Islamic schools better Muslims than those who weren't? Are they smarter? Where does that leave you?

My educational experience is actually a complicated story, but that's for another time. The point though is not about me, it's that different kids thrive in different environments. Everyone is not the same. Different horses do better on different courses. See also my first paragraph in this comment about value-added tables.

AS for BBC debate, the question was whether the panel thought faith schools increased sectarianism. You could see Sturgeon thought so but had to dodge the question because of Salmond's promise on a Muslim school so said she did not think faith schools were the root cause of sectarianism, which wasn't what was asked.

Why was it wrong to raise the issue anyway? It seems a valid enough point, particularly if attacks against Muslims have increased in the wake of the Glasgow attack? Is isolating Muslim children from their non-Muslim peers the solution? Is your answer to everything either a)that's Islamophobia or b) that's nothing to do with terrorism?

There's never going to be enough Islamic schools to house the thousands of Muslim school children in Scotland, such is the number and geographical spread of the community. Even if we had four Islamic schools (some way off I would suggest), that would still only account for 15-20% of Muslim children. BTW, Jews suffering anti-Semitism, is that their fault for having a Jewish school?

Home schooling's fine - but again that's not maximising a child's potential either, is it? That isjust stunting the development of their social skills.

Well, I don't think you've met anyone that's been homeschooled by that sweeping statement.

Faith schools, whatever denomination, are wrong. They indoctrinate children and that is not maximising anyone's potential, is it?

And that really is the nub of it. You and a great deal of people will not look at this issue in an objective, fact-based manner because you can't conceive that faith could ever be a good thing.

[johnmellor77]

Osama, the caricature about pitched "battles" came from you in your previous post.

I'm not diagreeing with you about kids thriving in different environments, I'm saying it's wrong to send children to different schools because of the religion of their parents. Call me an idealist, but I'd like to see enough resources thrown at our state schools so that they can help each child prosper. Should kids from higher earning families go to different state schools than those whose parents earn less? Middle and upper class children tend to do better than those from poorer households, sad, but true. Should they have separate schools? How about parents of different colour? How about kids of different aptitudes? Should we go back to grammar schools and secondary moderns?

Jewish schools are a side issue here, Osama. Let's face it, in the current climate Jews are not likely to encounter the same prejudice Muslims are.

Home-schooling: you are right, that was a sweeping statement.

I'm sure faith can be a good thing for some people, just not something that should be drummed into kids at school. School should teach children to look at faith in an objective, fact-based manner and make up their own minds.

Joe, again, whatever, man. How do you know what sort of school I went to? Anything to add other than your usual attempt to provide some sort of human idiot shield for Osama?

[joe90]

School should teach children to look at faith in an objective, fact-based manner and make up their own minds.

Of course mellor,
and then being children who haven't a clue (that's why they're still at school), they can then decide to become Buddhists or Roman Catholic or African Animists - that is, once they have all the objective facts which will enable them to decide, in this idealist pie-in-the sky world you inhabit .

What high school did you go to mellor, the one on the hill?

Anything to add other than your usual attempt to provide some sort of human idiot shield for Osama?
- as with your obsession with some newspaper articles mellor, you can't seem to shake off this obsession either - you're a a man of few parts.

What next, I'll be accused of preventing you from engaging in these public obsessions of yours - be my guest mellor, obsess away!

[johnmellor77]

Joe,

Honestly, what?

You're loony tunes, pal.

[Osama]

You don't seem to grasp that this is not about separating kids out. It's about the type of school that is there, it's ethos. And the fact is that people of different faiths and none do go to such schools.

Again, not wishing to get into a semantic argument with you, I didn't say there was pitched battles between schools (you put "battles" in inverted commas despite me not using the word), just rivalry from afar. I think twinning arrangements are a good idea to deal with this. But I definitely did not say that faith schools stockpile bigotry, quite the opposite. I do know that minority faiths suffer from bigotry as victims though. I also think it's wrong to blame them for that because there are intolerant people out there who do not like their schools.

It is a fact that Catholics are by far more likely to be victims of sectarian crimes than Protestants. It is stupid that the terms of societal debate is to blame the victims. It is absurd. And it is also absurd to say that Muslims should not have a school because there would be people that would hate them more because of it. It's a shame you can't see what an idiotic argument that is.

I didn't go to school with any black people, but I don't think they're lesser people as a result. Again, if anti-Semitism did rise rapidly, would you call for the abolition of Scotland's only Jewish school as the solution? Because you never see any Jews, it's OK to abuse them?

[johnmellor77]

Osama, you don't seem to grasp that ultimately it IS about separating kids out because of the beliefs of their parents. It's complete nonsense to suggest segregation will aid intergration.

And it's all about ethos now? I thought your post was about maximising each child's potential...

And, just for your information, I do call for the abolition of all faith schools.

[joe90]

Mellor's back on his magic roundabout of circular arguments -

...it IS about separating kids out because of the beliefs of their parents

- I should hope that decisions about a child's future were determined by their parents, otherwise children would have to be taken into state care.

As these terrible parents
who want to create a school aparthied system also get the vote and are also allowed by the state to create and rear children,
surely they are best placed to know what's right for their own children?

Mellor's now trying to say 'ethos' isn't important when it comes to education and learning and passing on civilised values - what are state-run monocultural schools, and faith schools based on, if it isn't an ethos?

Britian is a pluralist free democracy - except when it comes to having the choice of what kind of a school you want your bairns to go to.

Parents, in a democracy, are to have no rights and no say over one of the most important aspects of their children's upbringing. Indeed, according to mellor's knowlegde of how education and culture works, the child is to be given the right to choose, from a range of options, which religion, if any, it will choose to follow in adult life.

The child, who doesn't know any better, is the one to be given responsibilities and 'empowered' - and the parents are to be frozen out by the state and assigned the role of mere powerless spectators in the schooling of their child.

Sounds like the British nanny state to me - you're not a communist are you mellor?

ps
mellor based on your ludicrous assertion -

School should teach children to look at faith in an objective, fact-based manner and make up their own minds.

Which religion did you opt for then whilst still at school - Druidsim, Zen, Amazonian Tribal Fetish worship or just unnatural obsessions about people being interviewd on tv or for newspaper articles?

[johnmellor77]

So Joe, parents should determine exactly what their kids are taught then? What if they don't like certain books on the syllabus? Or sex education? Does every parent know exactly what is best for their child?

Parents can decide to bring up their children in their faith, but why should the state stump up for it? If there is to be faith schools at all, then they should be private.

Should there be a school for scientologists? Or communists? Or Fascists?

Did you even go to school?

[joe90]

If 'ethos' isn't important in the schooling of children,
then why don't we just send all the chiselers off to a concentration camp to learn stuff.

If they're not doing too well at their studies, collectively, a few could always be made an example of and taken out and shot - that would help concentrate their little minds.

And where does john mincer get this idea that secular is better,
Nazi Germay and Soviet Russia were both secular regimes -
- they didn't have any problems with faith-based schooling.

ps
I had a few pc problems and I thought my previous post hadn't been sent properly - I hope it makes sense

[johnmellor77]

Funny Joe90, it's faith schools in England that have higher expulsion rates so they can weed out the "undesirables" and raise the school's grade averages.

Real nice ethos, eh? Once again reality just doesn't match your view of the world.

Do you really believe kids who go to faith schools have more morals than those who don't? Can schools not have a positive ethos without it being based on religious belief? Do you believe a person with faith is automatically more moral than an atheist? Are all faiths equally moral, or are some more moral than others?